But I’m sure some will not like to be considered the “two year old” in this analogy. . . . two year olds with nuclear weapons.

The theory of (most?) heresy resulting from the desire for certainty without ambiguity (rather than learning to live with the tensions) - “thou has almost persuadeth me,” but . . . I, being the weaker brother, need a bit more help here.

To define heresy, don’t you need a contrasting orthodoxy? Could orthodoxy (to safeguard against extreme “heresies”) be “certainty WITH ambiguity” (as in, say, the Nicene Creed)? It doesn’t seem you want to do away with all certainty, right (gravity & velocity)?

Ambiguity seems to also contribute to heresy - to make room for my own unique perspective, I might careen to the edge of orthodoxy to the point that any respect for truth, truths or TRUTH disappears.

Back to the theme of this thread: if no theodicy comes close to being sufficient or satisfactory, then are you left with any God at all? Ehrman doesn’t think so.

Or will we be left with a God so small, so passive, so lame, so weak, so uncaring, so lazy, so vague, so impersonal, so amoral, that God can no longer be intelligibly considered any kind of deity at all. If this the ultimate definition of God, I think I could do a much better job, or at least Bill Gates with his billions should be considered a better god than God. Even Adolf Hitler would be a better deity - at least he inspired the German people with rousing speechs and patted children on their heads - he at least showed up from time to time. The trains ran on time.

If this greatly modified (diminished) version of God is accepted, he would apparently be so incompetent that not even the trains would run on time. Hitler, 1; God, 0.

What their loving action means is that they act lovingly. We should be so fortunate. It doesn’t speak to their systematic theological package - but why should it? Isn’t it enough to say those groups got that part right?

Do you think all ideological groups are so nice? Nice is good . . . it’s great, actually. We should be so amazed that there is any civility in such an evil world.

In fact, in keeping with the theme of this thread, perhaps instead of being disappointed by the presence of evil (if anyone is still surprised, well - that would indeed be a surprise), we should always be amazed at any goodness and stop demanding from life and God in some of the unreasonable ways we do.

But, boo, Aztecs! They sucked (well, literally, they sucked blood). Aztec group cohesion vs. Mormon cohesion? Whatever else Mormons believe, they got something right on this issue.

Anybody defending Aztec culture because you’re into romanticizing and sentimentalizing cultures - good luck with that! I hope you can time-travel someday and allow the Aztecs to practice some group cohesion with you!

There are simply some better approximations to the truth (however defined). “By their fruits you will know them.” Mormon vs. Aztec? Go, Mormons!

options:

- Okay, kill your enemies.

- No, don’t kill your enemies.

- Who has actually used this logic to justify killing their enemies?

- would this sort of logic work with “if God creates a world, why can’t we create a world?” or “if God resurrects the dead, why can’t we resurrect the dead?” or “if God provides an atonement, why can’t we provide an atonement?”

- rather than take God as a “super”-human, wouldn’t the analogy work better, “the police are authorized to enforce the law, even if that sometimes requires shooting to kill a criminal; but we shouldn’t take the law into our own hands.”

(God = police; people = citizen

Is that like “understanding” food, but never eating it?

What rule is there that life is going to make lots of sense?

Thanks
Patrick Lawrence

Adventist Ark an Adventist myspace alternative.
http://www.adventistark.com

Question regarding my comment: I’m am not quite understanding, David, what you mean by a non-responsive God of judgment and wrath. That sounds contradictory, so if you could clear that up (I think I understand, but I’m not sure), that’s be appreciated. Does that mean “God is indifferent now, but He’ll burn you in hell later anyway”? I just don’t want to presume.

Answer: When people are told that God created the universe, including life on Planet Earth, and are told that God destroyed tens of thousands of enemies of his chosen people…they may be confused when they make a simple request for the healing of a loved one with a painful, chronic, terminal illness…which is not answered. This appears to be non-responsive. Further, if God can kill enemies…why can’t we kill our enemies?

Happy Sabbath…and may we transcend our doubts–and convictions–and raise our voices and hands in praise to God!

Julius - I mean you. Sorry for any misrepresentation. I hope I didn’t take your name in vain. I am only suggesting these remarks are generally supportive and reinforcing (even if you yourself don’t adopt any of them - why should you?). Laterz. Jim

After all, “Soul Searching: The Religious and Spiritual Life of American Teenagers” indicate that Mormon teenagers seem to be the happiest and well-adjusted (my paraphase, probably not Smith & Denton’s exact phrasing). And then Adventists always bring up cancer rate comparisons (don’t know if those still hold up). And then there’s John Wesley’s favorable impression of Moravian missionaries (tranquil in a sea-storm). And Buddhist meditation, this is greatly admirable. Oh, yes, you’re very right - then there is extreme Islam, the People’s Temple, Koresh, crusadeers, etc. Terrible!

The excerpt I cited previously comes from “Spirituality and Psychiatry,” an article by Andrew Sims. The entire article was even longer (not that the excerpt was brief!). I think the hyperlink did not come out correctly. Here it is again - hopefully it will work this time.

http://www.cmf.org.uk/literature/content.asp?context=article&id=1921

He does characterize both religion and spirituality (and the end of his article):

Religion
- Community focussed
- Observable, measurable, objective
- Formal, orthodox, organised
- Behaviour orientated, outward practices
- Authoritarian in terms of behaviours
- Doctrine separating good from evil

Spirituality
- Individualistic
- Less visible and measurable, more subjective
- Less formal, less orthodox, less systematic
- Emotionally orientated, inward directed
- Not authoritarian, little accountability
- Unifying, not doctrine orientated

How exactly any or all of these characteristics specifically relate to mental well-being would be worth investigating (for me, anyway). Perhaps it is this characteristics rather than a particular group or theology that is important in this respect. Christianity, as you wrote, is indeed a mixed bag when it comes to mental health.

Hell? Horrible (except in my perverse fantasies where my enemies actually burn in hell forever and Adventist annihilation is proven so wrong - but God please forgive me for even thinking this and writing it)!

Yet, . . . the Federal Reserve actually believes belief in hell is a good thing. I laughed when I heard about this, but I’ll leave it to you guys to laugh and ponder:

“Fear of Hell Might Fire Up the Economy”
http://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/re/2004/c/pages/fear_of_hell.html

[These are economists (not theologians) making this claim.]

Does it matter if what you believe so long as you are part of a supportive religious group? Hopefully one finds himself or herself in a supportive, positive, and safe environment - wonderful. But if your particular religious group believes in, say, mass suicide as a way to ascend to higher existence, I suppose it does definitely matter! Unless, of course, mass suicide actually does work that way - known only through eschatological verification (i.e., dying and finding out).

Anyway, I think someone may argue that Ehrman’s conclusion to “Be happy, live well; enjoy life” might be best accomplished by traditional religion / broad spirituality - even belief in a fiery hell and a judgmental God might possible but remotely serve such a goal (although I would find this to be highly questionable and convoluted).

These last few remarks of mine, I suppose, would support Julius Nam in his original article - that while he is in large agreement with Ehrman about traditional (or even creative) theodicies being inadequate and for the need for a different conception of God & divine presence/action in the world, Julius comes out on the side of “theistic existentialism.” Julius, do you really mean existentialism? Or perhaps “Christian humanism”? Probably existentialism, right?

Anyway, buddy, perhaps you could encourage Ehrman (and his agnostic ilk) to reconsider the faith he abandoned - for even present, this-worldly, social, rational, creative, and pragmatic reasons (not for biblicalist, modernist, absolutist ones - since you seem to be a sincere and committed postmodernist/emergent/progressive type of Christian). To be happy, why not be religious/spiritual?

Just because a belief is useful doesn’t make it true - yes, we all know (but usefulness doesn’t necessarily - and for that reason alone - render it false either).

May the Force be with you, young Jedi!

For most of its history, Christianity has been the ONLY church in Western civilization. It has certainly been a mixed bag for mental health with its constant dread and fear of Hell. Does it matter at all what one believes as long as he is in a religious group, offering support?

Even without heaven (or Pascal’s wager?) a spiritual life appears attractive.

It seems evident that particular theologies and conceptions of God do NOT contribute to positive mental health and well-being. If you have some references that further deepen our knowledge of this topic, that would be greatly appreciated.

Question: I’m am not quite understanding, David, what you mean by a non-responsive God of judgment and wrath. That sounds contradictory, so if you could clear that up (I think I understand, but I’m not sure), that’s be appreciated. Does that mean “God is indifferent now, but He’ll burn you in hell later anyway”? I just don’t want to presume.

It’d be insightful to know something about the theology espoused by “Youth With A Mission” from which Matthew Murray was kicked out.

Hopefully, for those do participate in religion or cultivate spirituality (however defined), will find healthy beliefs and practices to contribute to mental well-being.

Here’s an excerpt on that:

http://www.cmf.org.uk/literature/content.asp?context=article&id=1921Religion and health: outcome studies

“Does the patient’s religious belief have any relevance for their health, prognosis and response to treatment? Is this true for both physical and mental illnesses? This is the substance of the Handbook of Religion and Health by Koenig, McCullough and Larson.[12] At over 700 pages and 1.5 kg it is a big book! It is a review and discussion of research that has examined the relationships between religion and a variety of mental and physical conditions; it covers the whole of medicine and is based on 1,200 research studies and 400 reviews. The two biggest sections of the book, each with ten chapters, are ‘Research on religion and mental health’ and ‘Research on religion and physical disorders’.

The section on research and mental health discusses: religion and well-being, depression, suicide, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia and other psychoses, alcohol and drug use, delinquency, marital instability, personality, and a summarising chapter on understanding religion’s effects on mental health. The authors are extremely cautious in drawing conclusions but the results are overwhelming, and if the factor being studied were smoking or plasma triglycerides, then the media would have taken them up as front-page news. To quote:

In the majority of studies, religious involvement is correlated with:

Well-being, happiness and life satisfaction
Hope and optimism
Purpose and meaning in life
Higher self-esteem
Adaptation to bereavement
Greater social support and less loneliness
Lower rates of depression and faster recoveryfrom depression
Lower rates of suicide and fewer positive attitudes towards suicide
Less anxiety
Less psychosis and fewer psychotic tendencies
Lower rates of alcohol and drug use and abuse
Less delinquency and criminal activity
Greater marital stability and satisfaction
We concluded that, for the vast majority of people, the apparent benefit of devout religious belief and practice probably outweigh the risks.

Correlations between religious belief and greater well-being ‘typically equal or exceed correlations between well-being and other psychosocial variables, such as social support’. This is a massive assertion, comprehensively attested to by a large volume of evidence. In Brown’s studies on the social origins of depression,[13] various types of social support were the most powerful protective factors against depression and the above research shows that religious belief is at least as protective.

The factors that correlate with religious belief and practice and tend towards better health outcome are all measured and assessed epidemiologically and, to give some examples from those listed above:

80% or more of the studies reported an association between religious involvement and greater hope or optimism about the future.
15 out of 16 studies reported a statistically significant association between greater religious involvement and a greater sense of purpose or meaning in life.
19 out of 20 studies reported at least one statistically significant relationship between a religious variable and greater social support.
Of 93 cross-sectional or prospective studies of the relationship between religious involvement and depression, 60 (65%) reported a significant positive relationship between a measure of religious involvement and lower rates of depression; 13 studies reported no association; four reported greater depression among the more religious; and 16 studies gave mixed findings.
And so on, with all the 13 factors religious belief proved beneficial in more than 80% of studies. This is despite few of these studies having been initially designed to examine the effect of religious involvement on health.

The authors develop a model for how and why religious belief and practice might influence mental health. There are direct beneficial effects upon mental health, such as better cognitive appraisal and coping behaviour in response to stressful life experiences. There are also indirect effects, such as developmental factors and even genetic and biological factors. It is a great pity that this important book is not better known and noticed but perhaps our secular and largely anti-Christian press has a vested interest in not acknowledging it.”

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. - A plaintive letter asking Jesus “why didn’t you ever answer my cries?” was found in the car of a gunman who killed four people at a church and missionary school before committing suicide, police said Wednesday.

The unsigned, undated letter is laced with expletives and asks, “Jesus, where are you? Do you even care these days?” KMGH-TV television in Denver reported.

The letter was found in the car of Matthew Murray, 24, on Dec. 9 after he killed two people at a missionary training school in suburban Denver and killed two others at New Life Church in Colorado Springs.

KMGH said it obtained a copy of the letter from someone close to the investigation but did not identify the person. Colorado Springs police later made the letter public.

The 1 1/2-page letter, handwritten on lined paper, sometimes insults God and asks, “Why couldn’t you write your (expletive) book more clearly?”

It asks “What have I done so wrong? What is wrong with me anyways? Am I really such a bad person?”

It concludes, “Am I too lost to be saved? My soul cries for deliverance. I’m dieing (sic), praying, bleeding and screaming. Will I be denied???”

Murray had been kicked out of the Youth With a Mission center in Arvada five years before. The center has had an office at New Life.

Ehrman basically says that we should:

1. Take good care of ourselves. Be happy; live well; enjoy life.
2. Take good care of others. Be compassionate; serve; share life with others.

He says this life is all we’ve got and that’s all we can do. And he bases this on Ecclesiastes.

Sounds good enough for me. Regardless of whether there’s an afterlife or not, we will have tried to make the most and best of this life; it may the only we’ll have.

I remember you! That first year makes me cringe, and I am fortunate PUC doesn’t require instructors to give “money-back guarantees” for their courses (that I know of). To make it up to you (and for introducing Michael Shermer), please let me also recommend sociologist Rodney Stark (www.rodneystark.com), especially his 2007 “Discovering God: The Origins of the Great Religions and the Evolution of Belief.”

Yes, the Open View is attractive to me in thinking about the problem of evil. [But change is slow, and I'm sort of waiting for the GC to come out with yet another consensus statement.]

Perhaps another way to go is to assign much more weight to human freedom (and human impact). Rather than to blame God for Hurricane Katrina (solely, as an insurance “act of God”), isn’t it an act of human stupidity to locate a city below sea level and then not maintain levee & sea wall intfrastructure, not have an evacuation plan, and then also be burdened by massive corruption and inept recovery efforts by the government? Or why do humans build cities (with bad architectural design and flawed materials) on or near fault lines? Or the tsunami - wouldn’t an early warning system have mitigated human loss or if people simply retreated to safer ground if they understood what was going to happen when the water rushed back to shore? Why does God get blamed for what is essentially human error? Isn’t this Philip Yancey’s constant complaint? We blame God because we refuse to take the heat. It is more cost-effective to blame God (free & lazy!).
____

A student here at PUC suggested that God used the 300 Spartans to help set up and fulfill Daniel’s Chapter 2 prophecy about the succession of nations (at least he was getting something out of watching rated-R movies!). [This, of course, would require believe in the traditional Adventist view of the Babylonian king's dream.] Is this how God might deal with evil? By not constant interference but by “critical juncture” intervention (via butterfly effect)?

I’ll have to reconsider the Mongol Empire!

See ya’ll, it was fun.