Comments on: The Saga of Questions on Doctrine and the Adventist Future http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/ Re-imagining the Adventist Vision ~ Beyond Conservative and Liberal ~ Lifting Up the Family of Adventism Fri, 05 Dec 2008 07:54:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: David Vickman http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2144 David Vickman Mon, 03 Mar 2008 22:08:49 +0000 http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2144 Prophetic principles remain valid, but when we think we have the future all figured out...the future refuses to cooperate. We need to have response-ability...so that no matter what happens...we are prepared to respond responsibly. Burn the charts! But keep the principles, concepts, and generalized scenarios. It doesn't pay to be to literalistic about the future. It just doesn't pay. It also doesn't pay to tangentially deviate from the topic at hand! Prophetic principles remain valid, but when we think we have the future all figured out…the future refuses to cooperate. We need to have response-ability…so that no matter what happens…we are prepared to respond responsibly. Burn the charts! But keep the principles, concepts, and generalized scenarios. It doesn’t pay to be to literalistic about the future. It just doesn’t pay. It also doesn’t pay to tangentially deviate from the topic at hand!

]]> By: Carol Fowler http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2139 Carol Fowler Sun, 02 Mar 2008 19:01:22 +0000 http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2139 Not the first time the prophecy charts were wrong, as I recall. Those dunderhead moves really create bad results. Right, David? Not the first time the prophecy charts were wrong, as I recall. Those dunderhead moves really create bad results. Right, David?

]]> By: David Vickman http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2138 David Vickman Fri, 29 Feb 2008 21:31:20 +0000 http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2138 This is creepy! The most recent comment to the most rececent presentation is 2 weeks old! Everyone must have gotten raptured...and I'm left behind! I knew I should have read those "Left Behind" books! My prophecy charts were all wrong! Now what am I going to do? This is creepy! The most recent comment to the most rececent presentation is 2 weeks old! Everyone must have gotten raptured…and I’m left behind! I knew I should have read those “Left Behind” books! My prophecy charts were all wrong! Now what am I going to do?

]]> By: Eric http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2132 Eric Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:20:12 +0000 http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2132 Great presentation. This link may be of interest: http://adventistsnotcult.blogspot.com/ Great presentation.

This link may be of interest:

http://adventistsnotcult.blogspot.com/

]]> By: andre http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2131 andre Thu, 07 Feb 2008 05:10:21 +0000 http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2131 I think we do well in revising both our theology in and, most importantly our histrionic reactions to the book <i>Questions on Doctrine</i>. If truth is indeed "present", then it will reveal itself gradually as decades go by. We may even find that what we thought was hard theological truth 50 years ago, was not because the passage of time requires adaptation and new meanings to so-called axioms. <b><i>When it comes to truth, the quest seems is more important than the ultimate discovery itself.</i></b> These discussions and the blogosphere tell me that there will always be tension between what we think is truth and what it really is. We will only be safe in Jesus. I think we do well in revising both our theology in and, most importantly our histrionic reactions to the book Questions on Doctrine. If truth is indeed “present”, then it will reveal itself gradually as decades go by. We may even find that what we thought was hard theological truth 50 years ago, was not because the passage of time requires adaptation and new meanings to so-called axioms. When it comes to truth, the quest seems is more important than the ultimate discovery itself.

These discussions and the blogosphere tell me that there will always be tension between what we think is truth and what it really is. We will only be safe in Jesus.

]]> By: Julius http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2130 Julius Sun, 03 Feb 2008 21:43:58 +0000 http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2130 Thanks Anna for the question: This is another article that summarizes the QOD story that I posted back in December: http://progressiveadventism.com/2007/11/02/the-questions-on-doctrine-saga-contours-and-lessons/ For a more detailed account by Dr. George Knight: http://progressiveadventism.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/01-george-knight-updated.doc For the "whole story," you can purchase a copy of my dissertation :) Or wait for your library to acquire a copy. One of your professors asked me a couple of weeks ago how the UC library can purchase copies, but I haven't heard from them yet. If your group has specific questions, I'd be happy to do a phone conference or a chat session with you guys. Thanks Anna for the question:

This is another article that summarizes the QOD story that I posted back in December:
http://progressiveadventism.com/2007/11/02/the-questions-on-doctrine-saga-contours-and-lessons/

For a more detailed account by Dr. George Knight:
http://progressiveadventism.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/01-george-knight-updated.doc

For the “whole story,” you can purchase a copy of my dissertation :) Or wait for your library to acquire a copy. One of your professors asked me a couple of weeks ago how the UC library can purchase copies, but I haven’t heard from them yet.

If your group has specific questions, I’d be happy to do a phone conference or a chat session with you guys.

]]> By: Anna http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2129 Anna Sun, 03 Feb 2008 21:16:06 +0000 http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2129 The information I have read here thus far has been helpful. But I still have a question. I am a student at Union college, and am studying QoD, Andreasen, Froom, and that whole issue. However, my study group and I are not really seeing what the specific issue was over. Was it that we, as christians, should strive for perfection in order that Christ's return be quickened? or is there something else we're missing?? Please help! The information I have read here thus far has been helpful. But I still have a question. I am a student at Union college, and am studying QoD, Andreasen, Froom, and that whole issue. However, my study group and I are not really seeing what the specific issue was over. Was it that we, as christians, should strive for perfection in order that Christ’s return be quickened? or is there something else we’re missing?? Please help!

]]> By: David Vickman http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2128 David Vickman Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:10:39 +0000 http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2128 Dr. Fritz Guy always brings reason and balance to any discussion! He is thorough and fair! Previous papers such as "A Call to Moral Seriousness" re: the Sanctuary and "The Church Confronts Modernity" were much appreciated. Also Dr. Guy's use of the term "EcumenicaI Adventism" has been helpful. I liked the sentence, "Theology is no substitute for service." And also the part about "raiding" the Bible instead of reading the Bible. Ellen White compilations must surely fit this description as well! "Last generation" theology actually makes some sense if legalistic perfectionism, and "final atonement" is not part of the package. If the famous quote in Christ's Object Lessons, pg. 69, "When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in his people, then shall the Lord come to claim them as his own," is viewed as a complete harmonizing with the Spirit of Christ in love and service, rather than as a sinless absense of making mistakes, it actually makes more sense. A critical mass of truly Christ-like Christians would undoubtedly cause an eschatological event of significant magnitude. What would Herbert Douglas ("Why Jesus Waits" and "Harvest eschatology") say? One problem with Adventist theology is that it can be so deep, profound, and complicated that it is very easy to misunderstand, miscommunicate, and get wrong. It can be cumbersome to the nth degree! Eschatological exegetical monstrosities abound! In the modern sound-bite era this can be a huge problem. It can lead to frustration, trauma, throwing the whole thing out, and running for the nearest exit in tears! Dr. Fritz Guy always brings reason and balance to any discussion! He is thorough and fair! Previous papers such as “A Call to Moral Seriousness” re: the Sanctuary and “The Church Confronts Modernity” were much appreciated. Also Dr. Guy’s use of the term “EcumenicaI Adventism” has been helpful.

I liked the sentence, “Theology is no substitute for service.” And also the part about “raiding” the Bible instead of reading the Bible. Ellen White compilations must surely fit this description as well!

“Last generation” theology actually makes some sense if legalistic perfectionism, and “final atonement” is not part of the package. If the famous quote in Christ’s Object Lessons, pg. 69, “When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in his people, then shall the Lord come to claim them as his own,” is viewed as a complete harmonizing with the Spirit of Christ in love and service, rather than as a sinless absense of making mistakes, it actually makes more sense. A critical mass of truly Christ-like Christians would undoubtedly cause an eschatological event of significant magnitude. What would Herbert Douglas (”Why Jesus Waits” and “Harvest eschatology”) say?

One problem with Adventist theology is that it can be so deep, profound, and complicated that it is very easy to misunderstand, miscommunicate, and get wrong. It can be cumbersome to the nth degree! Eschatological exegetical monstrosities abound! In the modern sound-bite era this can be a huge problem. It can lead to frustration, trauma, throwing the whole thing out, and running for the nearest exit in tears!

]]> By: Elaine Nelson http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2126 Elaine Nelson Fri, 01 Feb 2008 23:31:02 +0000 http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2126 Christians began to worship the Bible as the Final and Last Word long ago. That even from the beginning there was not agreement should surprise no one. Today, 2,000 years later whole forests have been decimated attempting to clarify the important doctrines and how they should direct our lives. We refuse to read the most simple commands: "Love your neighbor as yourself" or the Golden Rule which states the same message in a few different words. Rabbi Hillel was more than correct when he answered the young seminarian who asked if he could recite the whole Torah while standing on one foot, and he said "Do not do to others what you would not wish done to you. All the rest is commentary." But, oh, how the rabbis, both Jewish and Christian, love to argue the fine points of Scripture as if they were of life-saving importance. They ignore the simple to argue the 'finer' points'? Christians began to worship the Bible as the Final and Last Word long ago. That even from the beginning there was not agreement should surprise no one. Today, 2,000 years later whole forests have been decimated attempting to clarify the important doctrines and how they should direct our lives.

We refuse to read the most simple commands: “Love your neighbor as yourself” or the Golden Rule which states the same message in a few different words.

Rabbi Hillel was more than correct when he answered the young seminarian who asked if he could recite the whole Torah while standing on one foot, and he said “Do not do to others what you would not wish done to you. All the rest is commentary.” But, oh, how the rabbis, both Jewish and Christian, love to argue the fine points of Scripture as if they were of life-saving importance. They ignore the simple to argue the ‘finer’ points’?

]]> By: Glenn http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2125 Glenn Fri, 01 Feb 2008 17:52:11 +0000 http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/02/01/the-saga-of-questions-on-doctrine-and-the-adventist-future/#comment-2125 "But our theological concerns can also be bad news. Our theology can become too narrowly focused on details, sometimes on specific words or phrases. Our theology can become an idol. The danger that is the “dark other side” of theological seriousness is what I have called “theologolatry”—making an idol of our own theology. We should learn from a couple great Protestant theologians of the last century. Paul Tillich used to say that all our theology needs to be “justified by faith” just as much as our lives... The bad news is that much of the time we don’t really read the Bible; as my colleague John Jones says, we raid the Bible. We go through it to find hand grenades we can lob at other churches, and at our opponents inside our own church. In the process we often read superficially, misunderstanding and misusing the Biblical text. We ignore original languages, contexts and meanings in order to establish our own interpretations...Instead of being servants of the Word, we make the Word our servant, employing it for our purposes—proving that we are right, and those who disagree with us are wrong." A very apt description and indictment of the theological correctness battles inside and outside Adventism. And I can only too well identify with the practice of "raiding" the Bible instead of reading it. “But our theological concerns can also be bad news. Our theology can become too narrowly focused on details, sometimes on specific words or phrases. Our theology can become an idol. The danger that is the “dark other side” of theological seriousness is what I have called “theologolatry”—making an idol of our own theology. We should learn from a couple great Protestant theologians of the last century. Paul Tillich used to say that all our theology needs to be “justified by faith” just as much as our lives…

The bad news is that much of the time we don’t really read the Bible; as my colleague John Jones says, we raid the Bible. We go through it to find hand grenades we can lob at other churches, and at our opponents inside our own church. In the process we often read superficially, misunderstanding and misusing the Biblical text. We ignore original languages, contexts and meanings in order to establish our own interpretations…Instead of being servants of the Word, we make the Word our servant, employing it for our purposes—proving that we are right, and those who disagree with us are wrong.”

A very apt description and indictment of the theological correctness battles inside and outside Adventism.

And I can only too well identify with the practice of “raiding” the Bible instead of reading it.

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