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	<title>Comments on: Pacifists or Legalists? Korean Adventism and Conscientious Objection/Cooperation (1950-1970)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/</link>
	<description>Re-imagining the Adventist Vision ~ Beyond Conservative and Liberal ~ Lifting Up the Family of Adventism</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 07:47:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: David Vickman</title>
		<link>http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2403</link>
		<dc:creator>David Vickman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2403</guid>
		<description>What did Jesus have to say about killing, murder, war, enemies, love, hate, etc? Are the Old Testament atrocities ethical? Was it God(as humanly represented by Jesus) who did the killing? Or was it Satan(impersonating God) who ordered, and/or carried out genocide? When Jesus was tempted by Satan, didn't Satan represent himself as being the God of this world? Perhaps the Crusaders and Inquisitors were doing the will of God, with Old Testament justification, by killing...not murdering, heretics. National defense is very necessary...but 95% of the wars I have studied were highly unethical, involved unfathomable butchery, made no sense, and did not benefit humanity. Human beings need to repent...and turn away from the sin of war. We need to evolve just a little bit more...and outgrow our obsession with killing, murder, and war.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What did Jesus have to say about killing, murder, war, enemies, love, hate, etc? Are the Old Testament atrocities ethical? Was it God(as humanly represented by Jesus) who did the killing? Or was it Satan(impersonating God) who ordered, and/or carried out genocide? When Jesus was tempted by Satan, didn&#8217;t Satan represent himself as being the God of this world? Perhaps the Crusaders and Inquisitors were doing the will of God, with Old Testament justification, by killing&#8230;not murdering, heretics. National defense is very necessary&#8230;but 95% of the wars I have studied were highly unethical, involved unfathomable butchery, made no sense, and did not benefit humanity. Human beings need to repent&#8230;and turn away from the sin of war. We need to evolve just a little bit more&#8230;and outgrow our obsession with killing, murder, and war.</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis Brookens</title>
		<link>http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2402</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis Brookens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 05:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2402</guid>
		<description>Ex 20:13  KJV
13Thou shalt not kill.
This translation is not correct!

Ex 20:13  NKJV
13"You shall not murder
Here is the correct translation of the 6th Commandment!

MURDER
The unlawful killing of one person by another, especially with premeditated malice
(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Defending one's country in a war is not murder!  There is no Bible or Spirit of Prophecy teaching that recomends Conscientious Objection.  

Eccl. 3: 1-3 NKJV
To everything there is a season,
A time for every purpose under heaven: 
2A time to be born,
And a time to die;
A time to plant,
And a time to pluck what is planted; 
3A time to kill,
And a time to heal;

According to the Bible there is a time to Kill!  What would have happened if the Angel that killed 185,000 Syrian Soldiers was a Conscientious Objector?  What about David and Goliath?  Was David a Conscientious Objector?  How many people did God kill with the flood?  Does God break his own commandments?  Isn't it obvious that the teaching of the Conscientious Objector is simply a doctrine of men!  Remember, -- It is wrong to Murder.  There is a time to kill,  --  and it is not wrong as long as it is not murder!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ex 20:13  KJV<br />
13Thou shalt not kill.<br />
This translation is not correct!</p>
<p>Ex 20:13  NKJV<br />
13&#8243;You shall not murder<br />
Here is the correct translation of the 6th Commandment!</p>
<p>MURDER<br />
The unlawful killing of one person by another, especially with premeditated malice<br />
(from Nelson&#8217;s Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)</p>
<p>Defending one&#8217;s country in a war is not murder!  There is no Bible or Spirit of Prophecy teaching that recomends Conscientious Objection.  </p>
<p>Eccl. 3: 1-3 NKJV<br />
To everything there is a season,<br />
A time for every purpose under heaven:<br />
2A time to be born,<br />
And a time to die;<br />
A time to plant,<br />
And a time to pluck what is planted;<br />
3A time to kill,<br />
And a time to heal;</p>
<p>According to the Bible there is a time to Kill!  What would have happened if the Angel that killed 185,000 Syrian Soldiers was a Conscientious Objector?  What about David and Goliath?  Was David a Conscientious Objector?  How many people did God kill with the flood?  Does God break his own commandments?  Isn&#8217;t it obvious that the teaching of the Conscientious Objector is simply a doctrine of men!  Remember, &#8212; It is wrong to Murder.  There is a time to kill,  &#8212;  and it is not wrong as long as it is not murder!</p>
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		<title>By: Susan</title>
		<link>http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2140</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 22:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2140</guid>
		<description>Hello,
Noticed you were the former editor of "Compass"... I am wondering if this magazine is still in existence and if I can still subscribe to it (I looked for a website online and could not find one...).

Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello,<br />
Noticed you were the former editor of &#8220;Compass&#8221;&#8230; I am wondering if this magazine is still in existence and if I can still subscribe to it (I looked for a website online and could not find one&#8230;).</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Julius</title>
		<link>http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2116</link>
		<dc:creator>Julius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 00:08:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2116</guid>
		<description>Have you checked http://www.adventistbookcenter.com ?

They should have the documentary in DVD format.

Many SDAs have protested the Iraq War.  But most &lt;i&gt;American&lt;/i&gt; Adventists haven't.  And I think it's a shame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have you checked <a href="http://www.adventistbookcenter.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.adventistbookcenter.com</a> ?</p>
<p>They should have the documentary in DVD format.</p>
<p>Many SDAs have protested the Iraq War.  But most <i>American</i> Adventists haven&#8217;t.  And I think it&#8217;s a shame.</p>
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		<title>By: David Vickman</title>
		<link>http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2114</link>
		<dc:creator>David Vickman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 09:21:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2114</guid>
		<description>There is a Desmond Doss documentary, isn't there? If so, where would one obtain it? The history of the world is extremely bloody...and even though we consider ourselves to be civilized...the killing continues. Consider 1908-2008! Study war no more? Don't hold your breath! Have SDA's protested the Iraq War in any organized or official manner? Would this be a form of concientious objection?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a Desmond Doss documentary, isn&#8217;t there? If so, where would one obtain it? The history of the world is extremely bloody&#8230;and even though we consider ourselves to be civilized&#8230;the killing continues. Consider 1908-2008! Study war no more? Don&#8217;t hold your breath! Have SDA&#8217;s protested the Iraq War in any organized or official manner? Would this be a form of concientious objection?</p>
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		<title>By: Julius</title>
		<link>http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2111</link>
		<dc:creator>Julius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 06:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2111</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Peter, for your thoughtful observations and self-disclosure.  May YOUR tribe increase!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Peter, for your thoughtful observations and self-disclosure.  May YOUR tribe increase!</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Marks</title>
		<link>http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2108</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 08:12:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2108</guid>
		<description>Julius,

Forgive me for stopping mid-stream. I wondered where my writing had got to.

I don't want in any sense to be critical of Korean society and its excesses without at the same time fully acknowledging the glaring excesses of western societies.

God bless Lim Hee-Jai for his very courageous stance. May his tribe increase.

For myself, I thought I was delivered from the militaristic tradition of my ancestors including Lord Raglan, Commander in Chief of the British and French forces in the Crimea, of Charge of the Light Brigade fame. As a young man Lord Raglan was Field Secretary to the Duke of Wellington. Years later, in the Crimea, Lord Raglan was still referring to the French as 'the enemy.' Thank God for the conversion of my father, Raglan, to a pacifist stance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julius,</p>
<p>Forgive me for stopping mid-stream. I wondered where my writing had got to.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want in any sense to be critical of Korean society and its excesses without at the same time fully acknowledging the glaring excesses of western societies.</p>
<p>God bless Lim Hee-Jai for his very courageous stance. May his tribe increase.</p>
<p>For myself, I thought I was delivered from the militaristic tradition of my ancestors including Lord Raglan, Commander in Chief of the British and French forces in the Crimea, of Charge of the Light Brigade fame. As a young man Lord Raglan was Field Secretary to the Duke of Wellington. Years later, in the Crimea, Lord Raglan was still referring to the French as &#8216;the enemy.&#8217; Thank God for the conversion of my father, Raglan, to a pacifist stance.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter S Marks</title>
		<link>http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2104</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter S Marks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jan 2008 12:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://progressiveadventism.com/2008/01/24/pacifists-or-legalists-korean-adventism-and-conscientious-objectioncooperation-1950-1970/#comment-2104</guid>
		<description>Julius,

Thanks again for a very useful paper. As a western who has lived in Korea for the last 4 years, I am an interested observer of things Adventist and Korea.

It is encouraging to know that you have been a positive voice among your fellow Korean American religious scholars in respect of Korean Adventism. Many Korean Christians are still possessed by a marked and unreasonable distain  for Adventists. Perhaps this is because Adventists have little use for orthodox religious traditions such as Sunday keeping as well as for Adventists who estew the eating of pork and bottom level feeders of the sea.  

Several obsevations that follow help me to understand more completely the changing attitudes of Adventists toward the military as outlined in this paper.

1) The Japanese occupation of Korea (1910 - 1945) and the Korean War (1950 - 1953) were suceeded by a military dictatorship which only ended in 1980 or thereabouts. The black and while demands of a dictatorship are often matched by a similar strictness of the people in matters of conscience.

2) This military dictatorship was underpined by a deeply ingrained confucian society where there was almost absolute respect for tradition and real reverence for elders and superiors. 

[According to a recent 'Korea Herald' article "Korean civil law is notoriously weak, leaving little room for redress through the courts for contractual breaches." No wonder Clinton Lee was so non-plussed by the breaching of his 1952 agreement with the Korean government.]

[Also in the same newspaper I recently read a column written by a Supintendent of Police in one part of Seoul. He commented thus - "In traditional Korean society, the privacy of individuals was not considered important and thus there was little perception it should be protected. This tendency seems to still remain the mindset of Koreans .... A society little interested in privacy can not be expected to have any real regard for freedom of conscience either].

3) Could it be that the seeming overnight change in Korean attitudes to military service may have been precipitated by a slackness with regard to the keeping of the Sabbath, which in turn may often have been induced by a willingness of Korean Adventist school children to attend school on Sabbaths as required. There is a noticeable and tragic dearth of kids present at Sabbath services in Korean churches.

I am not w</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julius,</p>
<p>Thanks again for a very useful paper. As a western who has lived in Korea for the last 4 years, I am an interested observer of things Adventist and Korea.</p>
<p>It is encouraging to know that you have been a positive voice among your fellow Korean American religious scholars in respect of Korean Adventism. Many Korean Christians are still possessed by a marked and unreasonable distain  for Adventists. Perhaps this is because Adventists have little use for orthodox religious traditions such as Sunday keeping as well as for Adventists who estew the eating of pork and bottom level feeders of the sea.  </p>
<p>Several obsevations that follow help me to understand more completely the changing attitudes of Adventists toward the military as outlined in this paper.</p>
<p>1) The Japanese occupation of Korea (1910 - 1945) and the Korean War (1950 - 1953) were suceeded by a military dictatorship which only ended in 1980 or thereabouts. The black and while demands of a dictatorship are often matched by a similar strictness of the people in matters of conscience.</p>
<p>2) This military dictatorship was underpined by a deeply ingrained confucian society where there was almost absolute respect for tradition and real reverence for elders and superiors. </p>
<p>[According to a recent 'Korea Herald' article "Korean civil law is notoriously weak, leaving little room for redress through the courts for contractual breaches." No wonder Clinton Lee was so non-plussed by the breaching of his 1952 agreement with the Korean government.]</p>
<p>[Also in the same newspaper I recently read a column written by a Supintendent of Police in one part of Seoul. He commented thus - "In traditional Korean society, the privacy of individuals was not considered important and thus there was little perception it should be protected. This tendency seems to still remain the mindset of Koreans .... A society little interested in privacy can not be expected to have any real regard for freedom of conscience either].</p>
<p>3) Could it be that the seeming overnight change in Korean attitudes to military service may have been precipitated by a slackness with regard to the keeping of the Sabbath, which in turn may often have been induced by a willingness of Korean Adventist school children to attend school on Sabbaths as required. There is a noticeable and tragic dearth of kids present at Sabbath services in Korean churches.</p>
<p>I am not w</p>
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